Summary:
In this inspiring and thought-provoking conversation, Lori sits down with Dr. Andi Simon—corporate anthropologist, author, and founder of Simon Associates Management Consultants—to uncover how anthropology, curiosity, and strategy can radically transform the way we lead and do business.

From studying Middle Eastern immigrants to helping major corporations navigate deregulation and cultural change, Andi shares her journey of translating human behavior into better business outcomes. Together, she and Lori explore Blue Ocean Strategy, the power of curiosity, and how leaders can create joyful, purpose-driven workplaces—even in times of rapid change and AI disruption.

This episode is a masterclass in seeing the world differently. If you’ve ever felt stuck in your organization, or you’re craving a new way to lead with both data and heart—this conversation is for you.

🔑 Key Takeaways

See with “Fresh Eyes”
Corporate anthropology teaches leaders to step back and observe—before solving. Andi reminds us that lasting transformation begins when you challenge assumptions and look at your organization as an outsider.
Audience follow-up → What might you discover if you observed your team like a curious anthropologist this week?

Find Your Blue Ocean
Instead of competing in crowded markets (“red oceans”), Andi urges leaders to create new spaces of value through innovation, culture, and differentiation.
Audience follow-up → Where are you stuck competing—and what could you create that no one else is offering?

Curiosity as a Leadership Superpower
Curiosity fuels innovation and empathy. Andi and Lori unpack how leaders who stay curious foster adaptability, creativity, and trust in their teams.
Audience follow-up → How can you make curiosity a daily practice in your leadership?

AI and the Human Advantage
While AI is transforming industries, Andi emphasizes that the future still belongs to leaders who understand people—their habits, emotions, and motivations.
Audience follow-up → What human quality will you double down on as technology evolves?

Build Cultures of Joy and Purpose
Joy isn’t just a feeling—it’s a cultural strategy. When employees feel seen, valued, and inspired, innovation thrives.
Audience follow-up → How can you infuse joy into your team’s daily rhythm?

🔎 Mentioned in the Episode

• Blue Ocean Strategy – Framework for creating uncontested market space
  
• Simon Associates Management Consultants – Andi’s firm helping organizations change through anthropology
  
• “On the Brink: A Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights” – Andi’s bestselling book
  
• The Impact of AI on Human Workplaces – Reimagining connection and meaning in a digital era
  
• Lori’s Reflections on Joyful Leadership – How joy sustains innovation and balance
  
  

✨ Reflection Prompts

• What assumptions might be keeping you (or your team) from innovating?
  
• How do you respond to change—with fear or with curiosity?
  
• What would it look like to lead with joy as a strategic choice, not just an emotional one?
  
  

🧠 Who This Episode Is For

• Executives and leaders navigating organizational change
  
• Entrepreneurs seeking fresh market opportunities
  
• HR and culture professionals focused on engagement and innovation
  
• Anyone curious about applying anthropology and strategy to leadership
  
  

📩 Want to Go Deeper?

• Follow Lori on LinkedIn to continue the conversation
• Learn more about Andi’s work: Simon Associates Management Consultants
• Book a Leadership Strategy Call with Lori: loripine.com

🎧 Subscribe to The Joy CEO Podcast

⭐️ Leave a review to help other heart-centered leaders find the show

📲 Share this episode with someone who’s navigating pressure and wants to do it with more grace

Transcript

LP_Ep_25_Final Podcast

Lori: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Joy CEO podcast, where ambition meets aspiration and leadership gets a whole lot more joyful. I'm your host, Lori Pine, former corporate VP turned executive coach here to help you grow your impact and your wellbeing. If you're a high achieving professional in a corporate role driven, experienced, and ready to uplevel your career while reclaiming more clarity, confidence, and joy.

This is the show for you. Each week I talk with powerhouse leaders about what it takes to really rise without losing yourself along the con, because rising isn't just about doing more. It's about leading with vision, sharpening your emotional intelligence, and having the courage to self-reflect along the way.

Let's get to it.

Hello and welcome to the Joy CEO podcast. I'm your host, Lori Pine, and I am so thrilled to have with us today, my dear friend and [00:01:00] mentor, the one and only, Andi Simon. Andi, welcome to

the podcast.

Andi: Hey, thanks Lori. I listen to your podcast all the time. It's a pleasure and an honor to be on at this day.

Lori: Well, I. I have been waiting to have you on because you really are such a dear mentor and I often come to you for leadership advice and just heartfelt, thoughtful conversations. So it's always a treat when you and I can get together and have just something really special to talk about. And Andi, you have such a unique title.

To what it is that you do. You are a corporate anthropologist and really the only corporate anthropologist that I have ever met in my life. So let's just jump into that. How did that come to be? How did you become a corporate anthropologist and what the heck even is a corporate anthropologist?

Andi: I'm smiling because just the other day I did a podcast for a gentleman I know who is another corporate [00:02:00] anthropologist.

So I'll give you my, my journey, my story, and I, I'm, I'm glad the title has piqued your interest. I am an anthropologist, I have a doctorate anthropology, and I was particularly interested in immigrants from. Middle East to the US and returned migration and I did my research, got my PhD, got my tenure, and then by chance I met a bunch of bankers.

My husband, Andy, Andi was at a, was at Citibank during deregulation. And I met a bunch of guys and they said, why don't you come join us as a consultant and help us change. Now, there's a reason why this leads to my current role in my business, but 'cause I knew nothing about banking and they knew nothing about anthropology.

And so as your listeners are trying to figure out a journey who just listen and make it up then, so I said, sure, I can do that. And so I left academia, took a lovely leave for a year and became a consultant to [00:03:00] Citibank. When they were going through change, they wanted to take all these wonderful people who worked for them, often from nine to 12 and one to three, and if they didn't steal, they had a job for life and turn 'em into sales and service people who were much more engaged in their customers.

And I said, okay, change is tough. Humans hate to change, so what can we do? So we developed a whole lot of programs to help them change lots and lots of people who first resisted and then enjoyed. I stayed in banking for 14 years. I was SVP of the Savings Bank, going through deregulation. It was Poughkeepsie Savings Bank, and it was going through enormous changes.

We bought their first ATMs. I bought their first computer. Update myself. But change was something that I was comfortable with only to realize that everyone else looked at me as if I was weird and they were going to fight the changes. And then I was an EVP of a bank up in the Hudson Valley, and I helped it change itself completely.

[00:04:00] And, and then I, I got into healthcare during managed care. This is three, same here. Every time things were changing, I was curious and people who were in it were resistant and so managed care came and doctors would scream at me. I can take care of patients, but I don't know what I'm doing with this managed care thing.

And, and watching really smart people resist the changes that were coming. Humans are wonderful at protecting the past. They love to tell you we don't do that. So when it came time after nine 11 for me to launch my own business, I had a great PR guy and John Roskey and I sat and we talked and I said, well, I can do this or I can be that.

And he said, you know, handy, you are a corporate anthropologist that helps companies change. And I said, bingo in one sentence he had captured what I had done, what I had been, and what I was going to do next. And I went out happily ever after. I haven't changed it in 20 years. 23 years. I did my business.

And, and, and people [00:05:00] said, well, what's that? I said, I don't know. I made it up. And they said, well, I thought anthropology studied small scale societies. And so what makes you think a business isn't a small scale society and it has a strong culture and it doesn't really like to change that culture. And the stories inside keep everyone comfortable that whatever they're doing must be the right way to do things.

And they need a little goose. They need a little hand to see it's not working. So my first book, which came out in 2016, has eight of our clients' stories, and they were stuck or stalled. Where I found my real sweet spot was in doing something people were trying this or trying that, and simply couldn't figure out how to do it personally and professionally and in their business.

And that becomes sort of an interesting conversation. A little bit like you and I have had conversations, you know, we know what we know, but we don't know all the rest. And I'm a Blue Ocean strategist and I'm a practitioner and I've done 500 [00:06:00] workshops on it, and I love it because it shows you what's happening next is really where the opportunities are.

So I have built my business by looking at things with a fresh lens and telling people my job is to help them become like an anthropologist. Their job is to see, feel, and think in new ways and come explore with me. And I love to take my clients exploring. What's so interesting, Lori, and you'd appreciate this.

Is that we go into the same manufacturing plant to see how their product is being used only to discover. When we walked out, we were in three different places, book three different places, write down everything we saw and everything we heard, and they heard what fit into their box and I heard everything.

They didn't fit in the box and they went, how'd you hear that? I said, it's the same things we've, you know, you can audio tape it and begin to listen to the same conversation and realize that you're plucking from it. What affirms what you believe to be true. But I learned a long time ago. The only truth is there's no [00:07:00] truth.

And so we all live in this kind of fictitious, surreal world that we believe to be real. And my job is to help you shift a little bit because today the times they are changing and clients are all unhappy or happy, not sure where it's going, and people want certainty. And so I bring a little, a anthropology into the conversation and a lot of experience helping people do something they hate.

And how does that sound is something your listeners might find interesting and maybe not exactly what they're doing, but don't ever say, I don't do that. 'cause you could and it would be great.

Lori: Yes. Oh my gosh. Okay. So you just said so much. There are so many nuggets of wisdom in there. First of all, I love the definition of corporate anthropologists and even without a PhD, so many of us could take on that mindset of being curious and exploring what's right in front of us [00:08:00] without actually having a PhD in anthropology.

Andi: No, you just me to, well, what has said he, someone said to me he was still doing anthropology. And I said, I never do it. I am it. Yes. And, and so yes, you can do it. It's an observer and you are correct. I mean, nobody taught me how to observe at the end of the day, just clicked. But to your point, we all should spend time stepping out and watching things as if we're outside our own business.

What are we missing? And I'm watching your face and I loved you're curious. Yeah. Your thoughts.

Lori: Yes. And you've taken that to develop this, this whole concept of a Blue Ocean strategy. Can you talk a little bit about what that is and how you bring that to the clients you work with?

Andi: Well, Chan, Kim and Renee Moba wrote the book Blue Ocean Strategy, and it was published exactly 20 years ago. 2005.

And I met Renee. I like origin myths. And so I met [00:09:00] Renee in the elevator at the Harford Club and she was doing a speech about her book. It was a book launch. My client was Montefiore Medical Center and they found the book and they wanted to go. So we went. And there she was in the elevator and I said, your book is very anthropological.

It's all about visual exploring and, and all kinds of visual awareness. And you understand that until you see it, you don't believe it. And she said, well, you should be a Blue Ocean strategist. And I said, what's that? And she said, I have no idea. Let's make it up. And I said, I can do that.

Lori: So, okay, so now twice you're making things up, Andi?

So far twice.

Andi: Well, but you see that that's, you know, I had to once give um, a program on imposter syndrome and I said, well, I've been an imposter my entire life. If making things up is what you do, but it works. It works. And what people don't know is what you don't know and, and it is what they need or want.

But, so I became a real aficionado of thinking outside. It's, it's not even out of a [00:10:00] box, it's creating a new box. You know, people talk about, you know, think outta the box. They say, well, in Blue Ocean you're creating something new. Corporate anthropology, applying this to a, a venue, which sometimes was done, but not often.

And in a way that applies the methods and tools and theory just to a different, you know, concept, a different location. So I've done 500 workshops on Blue Ocean Strategy. I've had lots of clients. I've been to India and Mexico and Canada, and I find that. People at first are interested, but unclear. How do I find non-users with unmet needs?

The essential part is stop focusing on competing and create. Stop focusing on the market you're in, and doing a better job of being efficient, productive, keeping your prices down, having better salespeople. You're working on your current customers, good. If there are more of them, great, but if it's slowing down and the trend line isn't growing, who else could use you?

And often they come to [00:11:00] you. One of my favorite stories is a, a friend of ours, Jim Riley and after our workshop, he went back and sat on the phone and he and I laughed. He says, well, your memories of it and mine are different. I said, I know, but I like my story.

So he sat there and his service person kept saying, oh no, we don't do that.

Nope, that's not what we do. He made chain for his tires so they could handle the snow. And finally he said to her, why do you keep telling them we don't do that? She said, 'cause you told me we don't do that. He said, but I can do all of that. Which he had his epiphany and then he started to change everything from this is what we do to, how can we do all of this?

And he built his business and you know, tripled it with everything that was coming to him instead of stuff he sold. And so it's an interesting opportunity for people who are listening to think about, what are people asking me? What are they talking to me about? You know, who's a non-user who could use my skills in a different way?

*I've given talks [00:12:00] to folks during the 2008 recession in real estate and in all kinds of fields who found themselves outta work. I said, okay, reinvent yourself. Who could use you? What else can they, can you do for them? Because if that's not coming back, maybe it's time for you to rethink what you're doing and apply new methodologies.

I'm not sure, but it's a time to explore. So, but that's what Blue Ocean is all about, and that's why I found it so mm-hmm. A, a good, affectionate way of taking what I was doing and co-branding myself.

Lori: Well, I think that's a really great segue into what's actually happening in current day in corporate America.

You know, there's so many head headwinds coming at our, our workforce. You know, we've got the ai, we've got reorgs going, people are losing their jobs. So what is it you would say to somebody who's in this corporate leadership role? They've. Been [00:13:00] in that sort of environment for forever. Maybe they're over in the red ocean.

Yes. Where they, they're doing what they've always done, but they're not getting the results that they want and wondering how to lead in a time like this.

Andi: Well, we have had a leadership academy at a client's for eight years now. We've had several. This one is one of my favorite 'cause it's a healthcare system in Kentucky, which is one of the poorest areas of the country.

And, and they all come in without a lot of of training. But to your question, how does a leader lead in order to achieve what results? And leaders need followers. And so I often work on their followers even more important than their leaders. So if you're in an organization and everything you've done in the past, all of a sudden isn't working the way it used to, there are several things to think about.

Your folks often are closer to the customer or to the development of what's going on than [00:14:00] you might be. You are in an old world where you may have a command and controlled leadership style to you, a case study in a moment. But so as you're thinking about it, what could they tell you about what people are asking for that you are, they, they don't even know what to do with, do you have an innovation room where they can bring ideas together and begin to think about?

What the sales guys are hearing in the field. Are they hearing it? People story? In one of my workshops in Chicago, a sales manager came from Ohio and his president had sent him in to learn about what it was we did. He said, I was out with my sales guy and we were selling this patented insulation to a client and he was gonna buy, but I never heard what he said.

He kept asking me, what if could you have you thought about, I really could use, so he bought our product, but I missed all the revenue opportunities. Now he went back to Ohio and created the what of sales process. He said, I know what we [00:15:00] sell and what they're gonna buy, but that's here. The business is here and it can help us grow if we listen with an open mind to what people are asking for.

So instead of saying, of course we sell this, say, what can we do to help you and collaborate is not a bad way to sell today. If it isn't, of course, it's how can we do it? Coming back to your leader. Sitting in his office. So first thing I do is get into the field. He'll walk around, but go out to your customers.

Go sit down and have a lunch where you listen. Don't teach 'em anything. Just say, tell me your story, what's happening. Every time I took a client out to hear their CL clients. They've learned like the product is being used for something they never thought it was appropriate for, and they're selling it and people are coming to them.

All kinds of interesting ahas, but you've gotta do it off it, and you have to listen carefully. Don't put it in your what? Your boxes. Listen to all the outside of the box, all the pain points. What keeps him up at night is ah, create door [00:16:00] opener. The second thing is I did a podcast the other day with a wonderful gentleman who is specializing in helping individuals like your leader brand themselves.

In the past, people inside corporations, by and large adopted the brand of the company they are in. Yes. And what he's discovered is that when they lose their job, they have no identity at all. Yes. And I thought that was timely and relevant to you and your audience because what he's helping them do before they're out of work is define who are they to get, you know, a 360.

But what does it tell you about your identity? Who are you and why are you. Branding is about why you, so if you're gonna be out of a job, prepare ahead of time for why me? He said the people who on LinkedIn are looking for jobs that have a powerful brand get hired, and the people who have no story, a brand is a story, don't, because they're just another and, and opposite of a brand is a commodity.

So how [00:17:00] cheap can I buy you is a different story than how expensive are you? I need you. And how valuable are you and what, what will you contribute exactly, yes. To build, and it's a story, and I enjoyed that podcast because I was thinking even about my own journey. What's the next part of the story? You know, I told you the past, I sort of gave you a little bit about the present, but we have a new book coming out in six months, maybe less called Rethink Retirement because neither Andy or I are going to retire.

And so we wrote a book about retirement isn't necessarily bad or good, what are you gonna make it into? And one of the problems is people leave work and leave their identity there. Retire and have no identity. And they can tell you what they used to be and did, but not what they are and are doing. And that's not necessarily a good thing to do.

You have a important part of your life now. Prepare your identity for it. Brand yourself. Begin to think about why I am so [00:18:00] excited to be in this next stage. And I hope that helps your leader in the office who's wandering around trying to figure out what do I do next? Yes. Hmm. Yes, you gotta think about it.

Lori: And I think there's something so important to building that brand, you know, wondering what is it that is unique about me? Why do people come to me? What is it that I offer in my skillset? You know, again, that curiosity that you set out the conversation with, being curious and really understanding that about yourself so that you can create that brand.

And then having the courage to be visible with that brand, whether it's on LinkedIn or. Building your own website or whatever it is. So that, as you said, you know, in the event of a job loss, which God knows in this day and age, we all go through that. Yeah. You have a presence when you're, you're ready to get back out there.

You know, the other part is

Andi: that

Lori: if, look at my

Andi: archetype, I'm an explorer, I'm also a philosopher, but I'm an explorer and, [00:19:00] and I can preach this, but many people would rather not be exploring at all. And when times change like this, it's not bad to push yourself out of what's comfortable and try things as if you were younger, as opposed to an older, because the, the test now is things are changing.

If AI is something that you're afraid of. Go get on chat and ask it a lot of questions. It's my best friend. I don't yell at it often, but it does a huge amount of work for us and it does pretty well. And when it doesn't, I just go back and pre prompt it and, and, and, and I couldn't do what I'm doing now without my teammate.

I asked him, what should I call you? He said, why don't we call me Andy's teammate? I said, I like that. Yes. And so we have a personal relationship with my Chad. Yes. And, and he and I, I said he, someone said to me, why do you think it's a he? I said, 'cause I can yell at it better.

Lori: Yeah. And you've been an early adopter of AI for a [00:20:00] long time.

That's right. Yes. Yes. And you embraced it and it's been a very useful tool for you.

Andi: I had a client who wanted a rapid proposal, and so between chat and I, we rapidly proposed it. It was pretty darn good. And I got hired and I went, oh, that's not so hard. Yes,

Lori: so good. So good. In what ways has AR really influenced the work you do with your clients and have you seen a significant shift?

Andi: Well, the two questions there, has it influenced my work? Yes. My clients a little, I, I am not using it. It's hard to say how that works. I mean, we support one client with all the social media. We write all his blogs on ai and then we humanize it and, and now LinkedIn has changed its model. And so I'm using AI to help me write appropriately for the new algorithm on LinkedIn.

It's changed its own model. And so clicks don't count the same way they did and all, all the [00:21:00] stuff that you used to think mattered and it's all gone. So it's a whole new, so the content that I used to do is good, but I have to be careful how I'm, I present it. I have to be the authority on it. And so part of it is helping my clients understand that as well.

Um, but, but I'm watching them. I have one client who has about 600. Uh, children who have autism or special needs, and his program is in Chicago, and, and I introduced him to a woman. Who has developed a marvelous program called Footsteps to Brilliance, and they help in early childhood education, but they are watching autistic kids learn to speak and to read using their model.

And it's all wow. Combination of AI and, and, and, and, and, and, and online capabilities. Gaming gamification is really powerful. And so it's not just, uh, it's all of the intersection of it. They've just developed a program to help kids learn financial [00:22:00] literacy in the middle, in the early elementary school, it's got taught and so she's now got a, again, another, I think it is a gamification and what can you learn by allowing kids and then taking it home and letting your parents help you with it.

Lori: Yeah, I know.

Andi: It's so, so. It's so

Lori: cool stuff, so powerful. It sounds like there might be some joy in that, and so that would be a great way to start talking about joy from an anthropological standpoint. Do you have any thoughts about that?

Andi: Well, you know, I loved your word joy, and you and I had conversations about, you know, the benefits of working with Lori Pine.

Was at the end you feel joyful and what does that mean and, and why? And, and it is defined by both the individual and the culture of, of what does joy and joyful mean? And, and why is it important, particularly at this time to find the pathway to smile. And so I think that what it does is encourage people [00:23:00] to trust that it's okay to feel good.

Yeah, it's okay to feel like self care is okay. It's, you know, I think people say to me, how am I say, I'm happy? Because everything else that's bothering me isn't relevant. And at the end of the day, the only one, remember, the mind does exactly what it thinks you want it to do. I can't say that often enough.

So if you wanna be unhappy, go for it. But if you wanna feel joy, find the things that give you pleasure. You did a beautiful podcast with your husband. It was joyful. Yeah, it was fun to watch. 'cause the two of you, you know, really? What is joy? That's joy. You know, my husband and I have been married a long time and we still laugh a lot.

They said, what's the magic? I said, we laugh a lot. He gives us joy. You do. So yes we

Lori: do. You do great things together. You travel together, you go on long bike rides together. Yes. So, but, but

Andi: you see for you them. Messenger, I think for the audience and from my perspective, from a cultural perspective, [00:24:00] is that you can look around you and humans are copycats.

So two things. Your mind does exactly what it thinks you want it to do. Wanna be unhappy? Go right ahead. You wanna be happy and tell it? I'm gonna be happy and smile a lot, and guess what? All those hormones just flying around saying, I feel great today. It's just the myth anyhow. But the second thing is we're copycats.

So if you hang out with a lot of people who are down and out, you're gonna mimic them. And if you hang out with a lot of people like Lori and I, we just hang out and we have fun. Make sure that what matters. My daughter once gave me a little post-it. It said, in the course of a lifetime, what really matters.

She said, that's not the exact quote I said, I know, but that's the one. I remember your interpretation of it, but I, I remember it because in the course of a lifetime, you know, you go back to my own career, I was a tenured faculty member. Why would I give that up to go into something? I knew nothing about banking.

As a consultant about which I knew nothing about how [00:25:00] and explore it. So once you become trusting of your own curiosity, your own ability to try things, you realize that it's okay. Did it always work perfectly? No, but then I got joy out of trying it and then sometimes out of redirecting or pivoting, that was okay too.

Yeah. But it's been a, a, a pretty joyful life and career and so I don't know. Does that answer your joy question? Give you a listener some help.

Lori: I think it does. And I think that that also translates into corporate cultures. You know, like you make up your mind to be, and a corporate culture can permeate either the same misery or rigidity toxicity or, right.

The joy. Joy. Or the toxicity. Or the joy. And what sort of, you know, transitions have you seen, have you seen AC company transition from toxic to a turnaround?

Andi: I wasn't thinking in that direction. Although [00:26:00] I, I've seen companies, since we do culture change work, I've seen companies move from being top down controlling to entrepreneurial and engaging.

I had an accounting firm and when we started with them, it was the partners and they told everyone what to do, and then the guy moving into the management role. Said, I don't want that kind of culture. I want a culture where people take risks and, and know how much risks they can take. I worked with a healthcare client and they wanted to change the culture.

Now, toxicity is an interesting word. There were nine unions at this hospital. Do you think changing them was easy? No. No, and and so you could move people from the ED up into a room if they fix the bed faster, but housekeeping would tell us, well, we don't do that. And he said, okay, so you have people in the hallways who are on diversion because you can't turn the bed faster even though nobody's been in the bed for three hours.

And so I've seen places that are [00:27:00] their own worst enemies because people aren't joyful and aren't helping each other. And if I can sort of expand the word joy to say, part of this is being kind to each other. Yeah. Helping each other. Seeing that this is about the patient and their care, not about me and my control, and it becomes much more fun to help each other.

Even if it isn't always the, the way it, it is. So I get, I, I, I find that my client who handles autistic kids is a very joyful place even though they have kids at all degrees of handicaps and special needs. They've kids in wheelchairs who do artwork on the ground, putting paint on big paper and using their wheelchairs to go around as if they're paint brushes, and then they have art shows with the art that's done by kids.

Who really have difficult motor control. And so, you know, joy is an interesting state of mind and it's, it isn't a bad, it's a great [00:28:00] word. I think you've found a word that gives me joy

Lori: and hope and you know, it sounds like the client with the AU autistic children really is making an impact. And that says something.

Andi: Yeah, that really on people who work there as well as the people who are the parents and on the community. And they, and they realize that this is, and several of the management team have autistic children or children who are on the spectrum and, and they get it really well, but they're, they have purpose and they

Lori: matter.

So I was just gonna talk about the word purpose. And purpose seems to be something that keeps coming up in studies and, and that people really need to find purpose in the work that they do. What can you say about that and what have you seen?

Andi: That's interesting 'cause I've been involved with my co-author of my third book, ededie Frazier, and through the WBCA whole program who are women entrepreneurs with companies of purpose.

And, and what I, I, I love [00:29:00] about them is that they are of course, concerned about profits and, and earnings, but they're also concerned about the meaning of why their company and the people who work there matter purpose. And so, you know, one woman had a mental health practice and, and realized that the communities that she was in in the Maryland, Virginia area didn't have easy access to behavioral health and mental health.

So she began to create clinics that were much less profitable, but much more purposeful. To help people. And then she also created special places for people who could create more profit, but wanted a different personalized environment to discuss their social wellbeing and their behavioral health. I, I, I think that I, I, I, I'm watching these women who have companies of purpose and one of the women has created my medicine cabinet.com.

And she found that her mother was failing. And when her [00:30:00] mother was having a problem, her mother had no way of telling anybody what medications she took. Mm. So scary. Or what the doctors were. Yeah. And so what this woman created was an online system where you can put in all of your personal medical stuff and all of the doctors and who needs this, all the.

Nursing homes, all the independent living and assisted living, all the communities you might wanna think the individual does, but it's much a, it's much bigger because we have populations that are going to end up in the emergency room with no list. Yes. And, and you know, I have a friend who has Parkinson's said, I can't go to the emergency room.

They'll mess up all my me.

Lori: Yep.

Andi: And, and so it becomes an interesting purpose-driven methodology for solving a problem using technology. And I love that it puts a gloss on top of it. There's a woman in New Jersey, Delaware, Pennsylvania, and New York, who has something called Sunny Days, and she works [00:31:00] with children who zero to three or four with their parents, putting people in their homes to teach them social skills when they have serious, uh, social needs.

She's been doing this for some time. She was hoping that the government doesn't upset what she does, but her business is to really purposefully help parents raise children who have special needs. Now, I've had a couple of special needs stories here, whether it's mental health, behavioral health, or special needs, but it then my medical cabinet.

You know, we can talk about business having purpose, but I don't think it much matters when you're. Both looking to earn a living and make profits as well as finding something that's good. We have a wonderful friend and Jamie Candy is president or CEO of Edmentum, which is in the educational field, and she had been, and CEO of Andy's company before he sold it.

And I, and she has built a huge, joyful company, really inclusive [00:32:00] with intentionality. And now she's just bought a new company to go out into the schools and help kids prepare for their careers during their high school years with an online program that gives them what they need to learn about jobs and how to get jobs and, and I'm not doing good justice to it, but she looks for ways to have purpose in elevating the kids so I can.

Joy. Somebody asked me what's my purpose? And I said, this is a really good question. To simply say, I'm an anthropologist who helps companies change. This is my brand, but my purpose really is to bring the wisdom that I have and help others do better at a time of great change. 'cause change is the brain hates me and it hates the changes.

So if I can help you see things through a fresh lens and make some changes, that'll help you. I'm happy

Lori: and I think you do it in a way that softens it and brings a little less resistance and a little less pain to the whole process. And that in itself is joyful [00:33:00] and well.

Andi: But it's true. I mean, you know, you can swing, but you gotta change.

I cannot tell you how many companies I walk. And the guys are like this. Yeah. Cross armed. I'm not changing. You're not moving. No, and I mean the body language is just, okay, you can lock me in the closet, or we can open our arms and begin to think about the fact that businesses stalled or stuck, and it's time for us to change.

And I can help you do it, but you can do it. You're quite capable and part of it's the capacity to do it, to know you can.

Lori: Yes. And what would you say to all those leaders out there who are just spinning all the plates, doing all the jobs, you know, the, the leaders like you and me and. Who aren't quite sure which direction to head in.

They, they want to be successful in everything they do, but they, they're feeling all these headwinds. What would you say to them?

Andi: Well, I think that the [00:34:00] most important story in your mind is focused story. And if you think that multitasking is good, the research probably tells you it's not. If you let each inbox drive your business, it's gonna be hard to figure out what business you're in.

I had to say no to somebody the other day who has a true intellectual properties that she's patenting and wanted to meet. I felt her opened her new market and, and I read over the NDA and I read it again. Then I said, I don't really know what she's doing, and it sounds interesting. I said, but that's not where I'm going.

And I had to go back and say, I think what you're doing is really wonderful. But I can't get too involved in it. And I can chat with you occasionally if you'd like, but I really can't tell you I'm your mentor or your guide or your coach or your consultant. 'cause it won't work. I'd be up all night wondering what I was [00:35:00] doing, and so I get, I, I find no, it's not a bad letter word, not a four letter word.

It's okay to stay focused and figure out where your sweet spot is today. Now, I've told you different points when I've changed. I never stopped being an anthropologist. I just applied it in different venues, and I know for your listeners know who you are. You know, what do you bring? I knew I was an observer.

I could help listen to people and help them articulate the story. I could help them change the story, but they had to understand that I, I was who I was and I, my job was to help them become better at who they were. But they were something, you know, your point is that the leaders need to know who or who am I.

Yes. So, and you coach people, and I find coaching is a challenge because often people don't really want to hear what you're saying, and so how do you put it in softly so that I ask the question and they discover it themselves, but sometimes they're not [00:36:00] going anywhere and it's hard to see that happen.

Yes. Now is that a, is that a good answer to you? How do you stay

Lori: focused? You know, that is a good answer because it really is know thyself. I mean, that's. Goes all the way back to the Greek goddesses. Right. It's, that's right. It's all the way back to ancient history and know thyself is such a critical skill for us to learn and to really uncover, discover, discard.

What is it that is the truth for us. Yep. And I think you've, you've done a great job of giving us really a framework of curiosity, knowing ourselves. Finding joy and finding purpose. Yeah. And when we take that and put it all together, we're really on the right track. Yeah. And one little

Andi: tool that I often use, and you may do this as well, I do it my leadership academy, when we start, I give them a pad, call it pencils, and I say, now draw who are you?

And [00:37:00] then as you go through the year. How are you changing? Picture is worth a thousand words and I haven't put 'em up on their computer screen and, and talk about the story that they start with and you'd be amazed how people are quite honest in these kinds of things. My last one cried a lot, but there was a lot of honesty and the pictures were showing the fragility and then slowly but surely you can watch them change.

And the pictures began to capture those transitions and, and I am recruiting for next years class of, one of the alumni said, you know, that picture was the most important thing the whole year. He kept seeing me through a mirror. Interesting.

Lori: Well, it makes me think of all the ancient cultures who would do all those drawings on walls, right?

And those stories that those told. And I mean, my drawing would be like a stick figure even with the colored pencils and paper. Yeah. But it would tell a story. Yes. And there would've been [00:38:00] many ITA iterations throughout my life of when I was frail and broken and crying and holy smokes at a crossroads.

Where am I going? What am I doing? So that is a really powerful exercise and I, I bet that your leadership academy.

Andi: You know, when you, when you speak about your own history, I often visualize how you must have felt them. Oh, and, and, and so I, I, you know, and, and we've all had one detour or tool in our careers, no need to focus on them, but they, they are catalytic moments for us to take stock of.

Who am I? Where am I going? What am I doing? Remember that the other has defined us. That's not good. We need to define us. Yes. Yes. Inside outings, much better happiness comes inside out.

Lori: Yes, it does. Yes it does. And joy too. Yes. Okay. Andy, I always wrap up these sessions with a rapid fire set of questions. So I have a [00:39:00] five questions for you.

First one, one piece of leadership advice you wish you had learned earlier.

Andi: Good question. I don't remember when I got into, less so academics and into business, I didn't know anything about leading. I just did it and I did it not knowing much about what I was trying to achieve. I had a style and I didn't know there was formal leadership training, and my style was very collaborative and I, I, when I look at the different styles of leadership, it was a good one, an illustration I took on a, the losing, losing its most bank branch in Citibank in Westchester County to learn the banking business.

They wanted to gimme the best. I said, no, the worst. And I had a team of folks who said to me quite upfront, listen, honey, you're gonna come and you're gonna go, and I'll be here for a long time. So I said, [00:40:00] okay. But they all had a problem. They had a problem. They had children at home and when there was a snow day, they didn't come to work.

I said, so let's create a new solution. When there's a snow day, you bring your kids in. We turn the whole kitchen into a playroom and we watched them and we take turns and you take ery, and they all did it. And they all said, wow. It was Wow. Pretty cool. Now, was that leadership 1 0 1? That was creativity, curiosity, but it was probably revolutionary for them because they were so stuck.

Yeah, and, and if you don't think about problem solving as part of a leader's job, I could have been demanding. I could have been instructing, I could have told him we won't make our numbers and be very market driven. But instead, I was willing to take the risk and nobody noticed or cared. They were so happy.

It was so, I never reported it. Upline. I had no desire. I didn't ask permission. No. We just did what had to be done to

Lori: get

Andi: the bank

Lori: open. Amen. Okay. A daily [00:41:00] habit or practice that keeps you grounded?

Andi: I love exercise and I wish I could be more. Serious about, I have a trainer comes three days a week at 6 45 in the morning, and that gets me up and going.

Sometimes on the odd days I don't go up and going, but I like to, and I, I'm heated and I really find that after I exercise, I am transformed. I feel elevated and energized and like self-care matters.

Lori: It gives me joy. You and your husband are so active. You bike, you still ski. You do lots of things that are very active, so I really admire that about you.

Yes, well done. Okay. Question number three, the most joyful moment in your career so far.

Andi: Oh. That's an interesting question. All of your questions are so interesting. I, the most joyful moment in my career, I think [00:42:00] I say this because it's sort of pre-care. I met my husband when I was 19. He and I were sitting on a beach at Screw Lake where we met.

And he said to me, what do you wanna be when you grow up? And I said, well, I either can be an attorney 'cause I was president of my high school up army of my sorority and I liked all that kind of stuff. Or I can be an anthropologist. And he said to me, be an anthropologist and I'll be here for you. And I never looked back.

So from a career point of view. That really was a catalytic moment of, of, of real purpose and passion together that I had when we were working on, we were working on my dissertation and he was pushing me, keeping me awake as we read through it and not good copy editors. I read it today and I go, Ooh, but we got it done and I got my degree.

But it is, it is in joy that I look upon the journey we've had and it's 'cause of him. I got into banking. By chance. [00:43:00] And so I do think my partner is my best friend and my best career joy.

Lori: Yes, he certainly is. And and it's flip flopped for both of you. He sold his business now he helps you in your company.

Yes. That's, and like, there's been a lot of give and a lot of takes, so it's wonderful Just to watch number four, what's one thing people often misunderstand about success?

Andi: That's a good question too, a success question. I, I, I think that people define it with concrete things. The car they drive and the home they have, the trips they take the money in the bank.

I think success is really inside joy that you feel at having tackled challenges and achieved them, overcome them, walked away from them. But I do think success isn't necessarily. A thing. I, I think it's something that you enjoyed [00:44:00] and so feel, and that you don't feel, yeah, yeah. I mean, I hired a guy to teach me to be a keynote speaker.

I had done keynotes and, and he and I worked together and he finally said, I don't think I can do this. I can't represent you. You're not the kind of speaker that I can place. And I went, okay. And I walked away and I said, well, that was not my. My pivot, but I still think he knows after that. And he was right or wrong, it didn't matter.

But I, I think that we, success is defined inside by finding a path that you can, you can journey on and know that along the way there are pivots, but by a large, you find your space and your brand, your person who you are. Your companion. I really do think that your success is having a teammate, and I have I, you know that too.

Yes,

Lori: yes, for sure. And that being, it isn't just Chad, my teammate. Not, not, not just Chad, GBT. No, please. Yes. [00:45:00] Yes. Okay. Last question. What do you want your leadership legacy to be in one sentence? My

Andi: leadership academy is extremely important to me after eight years there. I just love the folks who grow because I help them see, feel, and think in new ways, and as I listen to them come back and talk about how it has made such an impact on their life, I just, one person at a time helps grow up into a better leader, is my leadership legacy,

Lori: if that makes sense.

I love that. And may we all aspire to help others think, feel, and see the life and leadership differently.

Andi: It gives me, I, I, you know, every time we pick the next class, I, I say to them, you're giving me a gift. And, and, and the guys who gals who join in don't know because they come fragile and, and I know the fragility there.

And, and then by the end they're [00:46:00] all rising well above where they started. And I go, I guess. And it isn't so right, but it isn't 'cause I'm lecturing, I give 'em a little wisdom. It's a lot of self discovery and it'll work together. And of doing what we talk about and you need to be experiential learners. We didn't talk about experiential learning, but I really do.

Experiences are really what teach us best and they are real.

Lori: Yes, yes. Even some of the painful experiences when we fail. Yes. We really learn from those moments too, as much as the successful moments when we do something really tremendous. It's

Andi: memorable and I gotta turn from and

Lori: away away.

Andi: Yeah. You're a joyful interviewer and I, I'm gonna learn some things from you about my own podcast, so I'm appreciate.

Lori: Well, Andy, you do have a tremendous podcast. Would you like to share the details with the listeners? It's, it's a tremendous success. Well, I think I've just

Andi: published 456 after, I dunno, seven years of this, but the [00:47:00] podcast is called On the Brink with Andy Simon. It came outta my first book called On the Brink of Fresh Lens to Take Your Business to New Heights.

That book has eight kinds of ours who were stuck or stalled, and the idea was a little anthropology helped them change. And so after I launched it, my PR woman said to me, you need a podcast. So I went out and I was on a couple and I said, I don't like those. I can do better. And so I launched again, like leadership.

I didn't know what I was doing, but I have grown it. We were ranked 18th among the top 100 podcasts on the topic of change. Sort of is on Brandand and, and I have people coming to me. The guy the other day, I said, how'd you find me? He said, well, my pr, I said, you should be on her podcast. And I went, oh, okay.

Lori: Because you're the top 1%.

Andi: And I'm laughing, but you know, I haven't monetized it. And at times I think about monetizing it and getting advertisers in, but I, I'm joyful at just doing it [00:48:00] and sharing it and not having to be accountable to anyone but myself and to the interviewee and making them successful.

Lori: So that's my job. It is quite a gift, and the people that you interview are just tremendous. So I, I do look up to you and aspire to that. So thank you for what you're bringing to the world and thank you for this interview and sharing with all of us your wonderful gifts. I think that what we've learned here today is that we all can take the time to know ourselves, be curious, see what's in the blue ocean, and find a little bit more joy.

It's been my pleasure, Lori. Thank you for having me. My pleasure as well. Andy, thank you so much for joining us on the Joy CEO podcast. Thanks for listening to the joy CEO. I hope today's conversation left you feeling seen, stretched, and a little more grounded in your own joy If something resonated, be sure to hit.

Subscribe. Leave a five star review and share this episode with someone walking [00:49:00] a similar path. And if you're ready to take this work deeper, connect with me on LinkedIn or Instagram at Lori Pine, or head over to my website, lori pine.com to learn more about coaching retreats and how we can work together.

Because joy isn't just personal, it's powerful. And when you lead with joy, you don't just rise, you bring others with you. Until next time, keep leading with heart. And don't forget to claim your joy.